Curse

Sereng Amaranth · Apr 16, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Last Chance: req 10e, 1 second cast, 45sec reset.
Ranged attack. Fire at target foe, for every 10 hit points you've lost, you deal an additional +2 damage with this attack.

A little overpowered, lol. Say you have 500hp and you are down to 10hp. You have lost 490hp meaning 49 * 2 = 98, in addition to the default damage. Well now that I think about it, the 45 sec reset kind of offsets the dmg.

I could see this being used with a necro and sacrifice skills. Then use Grenth's Balance to regain health.

Trylo · Apr 16, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

um.... 19-30 damage, +45 +15% armor penetration....

lets use a bow because thats somewhat kinda similar.

15-28 damage, i beleive the max is +22 damage. that 50 base damage. so thats 10 energy there. use penetrating shot for the +20% penetration for another 10 energy (these both are expertise effected, but thats not really a factor for damage).

either make this skill elite and make it more like

This attack does 1...30 more damage and has 10% armor penetration.

or forget it

Ace XL · May 07, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Isn't this exactly like the dwarves in WoW?

Evilsod · May 07, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sereng Amaranth

A little overpowered, lol. Say you have 500hp and you are down to 10hp. You have lost 490hp meaning 49 * 2 = 98, in addition to the default damage. Well now that I think about it, the 45 sec reset kind of offsets the dmg.

I could see this being used with a necro and sacrifice skills. Then use Grenth's Balance to regain health.

Would hardly be effective though... I mean if you get yourself down that low and 2 E-surge mesmers hit you, its gonna be half a team dead in seconds...

It would make these new fancy double damage bosses pretty lethal

Rikimaru · May 09, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace XL

Isn't this exactly like the dwarves in WoW?

ROFLMFAOSAUCE!!!
..I'm sorry.
Seriously though; ROFLAO!!1!1
Ok, ok.. I'll be constructive.. HAAAAhahahahahaHAAaaaaHaha!

Sorry, I'm not trying to bump this, it's basically a finished thread, I just couldn't help that...

Terra Xin · May 10, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

I haven't read through the three pages... I will though, just wanted to reserve my post.

I really love this idea, but and as someone said, I wouldn't want it implemented till the 5th or 6th chapters of GW. As for gunslingers becoming shooter style? Not really.

Post in a bit^^

BahamutKaiser · May 10, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

I simply hate the idea of guns being introduced into a game like this. This isn't FF where everyone can use powerful magic, slash through walls, and summon Bahamut, in a world with guns, guns own all, even if there is magic, it takes only a fraction of the time to train a bunch of grunts to kill with a gun, and a lifetime to make an effective magician, unless everyone can use a baseline of magic which can overcome the effects of modern weapons in war, it is simply a disfunctional addition.

Final Fantasy VII and VIII are good examples of games where magic, swords and guns work together, GW is not, even in games like WoW, it is fake. A good class can be made with many different kinds of mechanics, but no matter how balanced and even fun the mechanics are, making it a gun slinger class, or anything with guns, is a strong blow to the reality of the game, it is simply fake. Even Crossbows are lame, Guns are simply out of place, they could make a job that uses Whips, Javalins, Please use Chakrums and Slingshots instead of guns, Guns would deface the image and military structure of GuildWars.

The other thing you need in a real world with guns, is friendly fire...... guns make war strategic, not epic, they don't foster Mastery and Heroism, they make war a mush of random deaths. I would rather have a class which Shoots fire balls out of his mouth than a gunslinger, same effect, but less damaging to the games image.

Riplox · May 10, 2006, 01:00 AM // 01:00

I want to see this implemented. You could have them be cyrstal powered (good use for the rubies and sapphires

) or gunpowder based. Rifles could deal like 150 or so dmg with a normal shot, have a range of say 250ft and have refire rates about 3.5 seconds each, while handguns have 100ft range and deal about 100dmg a shot with a 2.5 second refire. Seems like it could work.

BahamutKaiser · May 10, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riplox

I want to see this implemented. You could have them be cyrstal powered (good use for the rubies and sapphires

) or gunpowder based. Rifles could deal like 150 or so dmg with a normal shot, have a range of say 250ft and have refire rates about 3.5 seconds each, while handguns have 100ft range and deal about 100dmg a shot with a 2.5 second refire. Seems like it could work.

0 recognition of obvious damage balance, this would totaly blow away every kind of spiking, and simply mars the ideas support, proving that it caters to ........ lets just say people like this.

Making guns which revolve around an alternate source doesn't change the fact that it is a lame weapon usable by the masses, robbing GW or realistic combat, and being a weak addition, If I was Balthazar, I would Murder any person who invents a gun to preserve the glory of combat.

The closest thing to a gun type job that I can approve of (and this is just my personal approval) is some kind of alchemist. Someone who uses a required level of magical machinery to create explosive, combustion, and advanced projectile weaponry, in such a way that it would still be an art of talent and mastery to use, and it could be developed within reasonable damage figures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ActionJack

You dislike guns because you are being brain wash by CS and Battlefield. You jump to AK-47 and M-16 when think of the guns. I think flaint-lock Pistol or Musket or hand cannon might be a better term.

Historically, blackpower weapon has ben around for long time. GW seem to be around late middle age (with the big castle, cannons, contential sailing ships, exploding catapules), and not something of the Classic Age, so blackpower should be fit in. Many other big name fantasy games (Warcraft, Warhammer, FF) also have guns.

Sigh... its gest to me again.... I will try to stay out of this topic of gun myself.. and focus on topic....

A gun in it's simplest form is a boom stick, which allows a human to excersise lethal force, no matter how unfocused, without signficant skill, training, even courage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

I've played other MMORPG fantasy-style games that had guns. The thing that prevents them from making it look like a FPS is making the guns look rough and somewhat primitive. It's not like they'd add a desert eagle or something, lol.

The key to making a archane type world with humans that have limited capability which can survive firearm combat is..... sheer denial. Unless everyone has the innate ability to dodge bullets, like FF VII characters (expecially in the new movie), a world with guns is totaly unnrealisic. Just because this is a fictional game doesn't mean it should be unnrealistic, and as far as realism goes, this game does better than most RPGs, with limited human power, and very well developed background and combat mechanics. This is a world with limited people, they don't level up to 99 and preform a 26 slash attack when they are getting their ass kicked. Using Melee, Bow, and even many magical attacks are all outmatched by the sheer simplicity and effectiveness of a gun, from a realisitic viewpoint, and even if they did make a realistic gun class type addition, it wouldn't carry broken damage figures which overpower balanced builds.

Dark Suoon · May 10, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

now itd be nice but its not middle aged..... might be cool as a crossbow? lol

Rikimaru · May 10, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Wow, Bahamut.
1st, do you seriously think that a gun would do more damage than a meteor to the head, fireball to the face, immolation, stabbed by a sword, cleaved with an axe, whacked by a hammer bigger than you are, stuck with a barrage of flaming arrows, or being bitten by a giant stone dragon?

2nd, guns do require skill. Random thugs and murderers running around are able to do what they do because they shoot people from only several feet away; how much skill do you think you need to kill someone with a sword when you sneak up on them from behind? More skill with guns allows people to fire more accurately at greater distances, fire accurately at a target without taking as long to aim, and performing crazy manuevers that make it harder for someone to hit you with one (not actually dodging bullets, but making yourself a more difficult target).

Also, there are tricks you can perform with certain types of guns which requires skill, such as "fanning" a revolver.

BahamutKaiser · May 10, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Skill will improve your capabilities with any weapon, but like I said, A gun does not require skill, thus it changes the face of combat. Yes, anyone can kill easily if you sneak up on someone with any weapon, that doesn't require a gun, but an amature isn't going to step up to a seasoned warrior with a sword and beat him, but with a gun, realisticly, no matter how good you are, an amature can kill you.

That is why war is different with guns, in reality, use of any melee weapon in a world with firearms is limited to stealth combat and lack of ammo, a century of swordmanship and Warrior training isn't going to save a Warriors life from a litterally newb volley of fire, thus Midevil combat ceases to exsist.

Yes there are plenty of things in Guild Wars that do that much damage, from a balanced stand point, you could make it weak (fake) enough to have people surviving random gun shot wounds, after all we are already healing severed arteries and disease on the battle field, the true disfunction to guns is the robbery of realism from the game.

There are alot of guns even now days that are still very inaccurate, mostly machine guns, yet they are extremely effective, because the simple truth is, a wall of lead is better than aim. I spent alot of time listening to my friend, an ExMarine who was extremely active in Veitnam, reminise about combat, tourchering, and close quarters combat. If there was any way for Swords and shield to compeat with Guns, then they wouldn't have immediately replaced Knights and Swords.

Hercules, Achilies, Alexander, Author, there are no more legends and true Heros in todays wars, and it isn't just because fiction isn't propogated, it is because Guns rob combat of true glory, Modernized weapon wars are all about firepower and strategy, the single man becomes an expendable tool, little thought of. But if you need a real life example of how well even primitive firearms totaly decimate close quarters combatants, then read the history of the spanish conquering the Aztecs, and The American domination over the Native tribes of America.

There is a line between fantasy and fake, in a good fantasy world, the fiction make sense, and works in a realistic manner. In a game like Final Fantasy, where every fighter can dodge a bullet, and magic is a common tool among most, Guns are on realisticly even ground, but in a Game like Guild Wars, where players don't level up into god like status, nor have super human powers, it is realy fake, guns would overcome current combatants, You can block and arrow, even catch it, you can't deflect bullets, no not in reality, and even the simplest farmer can spend a few days learning to aim and stand a fight against a lifetime master of Sword, Bow, or even Magic.

Like I said, there are ways to do guns in a realistic manner, like having an alchemist class, which uses obscure technology and magic to utilize more modern weaponry, but even then, I would perfer something else.

Rikimaru · May 11, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

I think you missed the point.
If you're going against someone whos unarmed, like these amatures you're mentioning that easily murder people, there aren't many weapons that they couldn't kill someone with. And it is possible to use skill to avoid bullets, but as I said, you don't "dodge" them, since that would take the reaction time of a god, but you move in ways that make yourself a more difficult target to hit, basically making them miss more rather than you dodging.
A bullet isn't going to hurt some sword-wielding warrior any more than an arrow to the face or an elementalist's fireball.
The legendary fighters you are thinking of were very rare, and often weren't remembered for having survived a direct head-on assault from an opposing army as you use as an example for the gun-fighting wars; they were known for there skills in ordinary fights. Any others, such as you mentioned, are remembered for their leadership skills, and there are those like that in more recent history.
Now, even though you don't seem to agree, in a gun-fight the more skilled person is going to win. Like I said, they make themselves difficult targets and can more accurately and quickly hit the other person.

Now, as to swords not competing with guns: I doubt that in real life a sword would stand up well against fireballs either, but in this game they do.
Also, in the same ways you think that a swordsman can't stand up to gunman, they were never able to stand up to bows like that either, and yet bows exist in this game.

And as for them robbing the realism: first, this is a fantasy game, they can add whatever they hell they feel like to it, people could use spells that spew rabid fire-monkeys from their butts. Second, guns are more reasonable and realistic than magic or monsters.

As for the biggest problem people seem to have with this: adding guns to this won't turn the game into some kinda of crazy technological futuristic game; I'm asking for rifles and revolvers, not lasers. Also, as I've said before, the dwarves already posses technology far beyond these.

Cjlr · May 11, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Have you seen some of the crap the dwarves build? There exists within Guild Wars already a technological sophistication far in excess of what is required to build primitive guns.

Early firearms were, frankly, pieces of crap. They were ungainly, akward, fired once a minute, and couldn't hit a brick wall at twenty paces. It took centuries, literally centuries, for firearms to outpace bows in terms of effectiveness.

Knights weren't destroyed by firearms. They were destroyed by English longbowmen on the fields of France. Even into the sixteenth century a capable man with a bow was overmatched vis-a-vis a capable man with a gun. Getting him to the point where he was capable, on the other hand... That was the sole advantage firearms held over more traditional weaponry for quite a few years.

A gunshot wound from a primitive matchlook musket is hardly any more deadly than a six-inch gash across your body. Even were the damage greater in gameplay terms the rate of fire would have to be much lower to be anything approaching realistic.

Gmr Leon · May 11, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Guns,the fall of great warriors,archers,and empires were caused by a simple projectile fired out of a metallic barrel.

I would rather not see the Gunslinger become a profession in GW. I don't care how much skill it may require it just wouldn't fit into the game to me. Sort of like how when I have to refill my soda it breaks the feel of being in the game world.

Rikimaru · May 11, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

It isn't my oppinion that this would ruin the mood of the game, but they have to add something new with the new classes, or it will just get stupid fast (the concept of adding new classes, not the game itself).

Dr Strangelove · May 11, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Some points regarding "realism"

Guns were not the end of single combat mentality warfare. The longbow was. With it, mounted knights no longer stood a chance as giant citzen armies could mow down champions of melee before they stood a chance. Tactics with guns were simply an expansion upon tactics used with the longbow. Read up on the Hundred Years War and English tactics for more on that.

While we're saying a gunshot would be an insta-kill, let's just remember that we have people being lit on fire, struck by lightning, eviscerated and bashed over the head by all sorts of heavy objects. No one could survive any of those things, not even for a second. Realistically, an elementalist would cast meteor and kill everything, including the dinosaurs.

I don't think anyone is arguing for modern warfare style weapons here, such as machine guns. We'll all go play Battlefield 2 if we want that, those style weapons are not well catered to a role playing game (I'm using machine gun burst! I'm using reload! I'm using machine gun burst.....). I'm getting more of a sense of an old west style gunslinger or perhaps an industrial revolution style inventor gunman, both of which cater well to romantic heroes. Bilyl the Kid, Doc Holliday, Calamity Jane all are romantic heroes on par with classical heroes such as Achilles. For further reinforcement here, watch an old John Wayne movie, then compare it to a tale of a classical hero. There are many striking similarities here.

I, for one, would love to see a style of character like this, as long as it is differentiated well from a ranger, as yours seems to be.

Cjlr · May 11, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Some points regarding "realism"

QFT. Thank you!

Rikimaru · May 28, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

This is NOTHING like WoW other than the fact it uses guns, I've played WoW.
Guns in WoW have no class or skills related to them, the closest they have a is the Hunter which uses a bunch of BOW skills with the guns. Also, WoW has no pistols, all they have are a bunch of stupid looking (like everything else in that cartoon/game) rifles.
And I liked the arguments of this making the game into a FPS more than the WoW ones, atleast those had a decent level of rationality and real concerns; of course, everyone who's actually read this thread through knows that I don't agree at all with that argument either.

Rikimaru · May 28, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I just realized I never mentioned this before, but I don't think this class should look like a Cowboy. A little Simliar, but definately not a lot like one.
Most of their armor should be trench-coat-like, and the head armor, I think, should look similar to this Mod: Your link doesn't work and goes to near porno anime which isn't appropriate for this forum.
The most important thing to note in that picture is that the hat doesn't have the Cowboy-style indent on the top of the hat.

That's the best style for the theme of the class in my oppinion, and if you don't like the hat, all you have to do is make it invisible